Official Luthiers Forum!

I would argue Titebond Extend be the gold standard for AR glue. What I see is not cold creep but Hot creep.
Only Hide and Extend original put up a fight with overheating.

Best to not heat up a guitar.

We have been using Original Titebond for musical instrument assemble as well as furniture and accessories for 50 fifty years now -- no complaints to report from us or our customers. Elmer's CG works too, we don't bother with it since the TB Original formula is available in the black light sensitive version which is a refinement in our finishing process -- for me that in itself is a good reason to use Franklin.

_________________
Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Agreed.
They should be kept at 40-50% RH too, but we do what we can building them to accommodate imperfect care.
what's the down side?
I'm not suggesting making and advertising them as fire proof but it doesn't take much to make them more forgiving of an unexpected delay getting back to your car or accidentally letting a black case get hammered by full sun.

I used Titebond on the rare occasions I had to use PVA glue but I prefer CA/hide/fish/epoxy if I can. Can't really say which brand is better. What I can definitely say about all PVA/'wood glue' is that you have to be careful about your batches as the stuff is very sensitive to freezing and can age poorly in the container, and some of the formulations are much more so (ie: only good for a few months). I have some cabinet maker friends who buy all their glue for the winter 'in season' so they don't get batches that could have frozen or gotten too cold in the truck.

I can back up Barry's claim, I'm one of those scientists. (nerd alert!)

_________________
Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Well, that speaks volumes to the power of full page color ads in all the magazines. To each his own, I will be happy to stick to my Elmer's

Grant

No, it speaks to 40 years of experience with the product. Also, I am not saying that Elmers is not good. Just that Titebond Original wood glue is a top of the line product with a proven track record. And I am not the only one who will say this. Ask the folks at Martin.

The scientific study of solvent washing is an old study done by the air force back in WWII where they were concerned about wooden propeller joints coming apart. They found that the strongest joints were freshly planed wood surface where solvent was not used. I don't have a link to the paper but I have seen reference to it on this and other guitar websites several times over the years. Also, my personal experience with solvents shows that it exacerbates the problem. As soon as solvent is applied to rosewood or cocobolo the resins inside the most shallow parts of the wood is dissolved and comes up to the surface which is exactly where you don't want it. Additional solvent brings more resin up. It takes long and repeated application and wiping to exhaust the resin and actually start to get to the point where you are reducing its presence.

Well, I guess everybody is entitled to their opinion....even Martin Guitars

Remember, these are the same people who claim they can torrefy their tops to be the same as 1940's. or 1930's or whatever

Grant

I found the link to the study:

http://ir.library.oregonstate.edu/xmlui/bitstream/handle/1957/1594/FPL_1484ocr.pdf?sequence=1

Here's today's response from the Franklin tech support:

Pavka, Paul <PaulPavka@FranklinInternational.com> Today at 11:21 AM
To
'kencierp@yahoo.com'
Message body
Ken,

Good morning. Thank you for your use of and interest in our Titebond Wood Glues!


Wiping oily/tropical woods with an acetone-soaked rag is what we recommend. Very oily woods should be wiped down until a white rag comes back clean, which actually may require an hour or two. Gluing up immediately following that is very important. Also, clamping may require more time, up to 48 hours.

For very oily woods, our Titebond Polyurethane Glue is an excellent choice, as it cures as opposed to drying like our water-based wood glues (Original, II, and III).

Please let us know if you have any further questions or concerns.


Sincerely and with best regards,
Paul Pavka
Franklin International
Titebond Products
Construction Technical Service
PaulPavka@FranklinInternational.com
Technical Service Line: 800-347-GLUE
www.titebond.com

_________________
Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Wiping for several hours is not a good thing. That will discolor the wood by removing the resins. Best to just glue up a freshly planed surface.

And from Elmer's

-----Original Message-----
From: kencierp@yahoo.com [mailto:kencierp@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2015 1:20 PM
To: Comments
Subject: Comments from Elmers.com

Reason for Contact: Customer Service
First name: Ken
Last name: Cierp
City: Litchfield
State: MI
Zip: 49252
Country: US
Email: kencierp@yahoo.com
Comments: Is it recommend to wipe down oily, resinous exotic woods like Rosewood etc. with acetone before joining with Elmer's Carpenter glue ? Thank you

Dear Ken,

It can indeed be beneficial to wipe down oily woods as you described before making the bond.

Sincerely,

Brian Rumschlag
Consumer Response Analyst

_________________
Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

In response to the OP, I've used EIR successfully without wiping it down before glueing. However, each set of wood is unique and you may benefit from doing a test using scrap pieces.


I use HHG for as many tasks as possible and while I agree that Martin's marketing of torrefaction is a bit dubious the idea that this makes their decision to use Titebond suspect is untenable.

_________________
George :-)

Wow, I could't believe that my OP was going to make such a debate!
Thank you for your thoughts and ideas, very interesting!

Bringing up glue around woodworkers is like bringing up religion

Elmer's and Franklin recommend wiping with acetone.........................!! What do those guys know about gluing?? Someone should give them a shake..!!!
Tom

_________________
A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

And last but not least LMII


On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 10:23 AM, Luthiers Mercantile International, Inc. <service@lmii.com> wrote:
Ken Cierpilowski
Your Email: kencierp@yahoo.com
Subject: LMII Luthier's glue
Message: Is it recommended to wipe down resinous/oily woods like rosewood before joining with LMII yellow glue?Re: sub: LMII Luthier's glue - kencierp@yahoo.com


Dan Kabanuck - Service <service@lmii.com> Today at 4:35 PM
To
kencierp@yahoo.com
Message body
Ken,

Thank you for writing. That's always good advise. Wipe the glue surface with acetone before gluing.

Dan Kabanuck - Service
7975 Cameron Drive #1600
Windsor, CA 95492
Tel: 707-687-2020
Toll Free: 800-477-4437

Folllow / Like LMI on Facebook and Instagram!
Receive notice of new tonewood arrivals, tools and specials!

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/luthiersmercantile
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_________________
Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

3 out of 3 glue companies recommend wiping? Guess I'm gonna have to re-think my stance on the issue and run some actual tests...

Thanks for the report, Barry, I am going to check it out. I've been a woodworker for going on 40 years and I've always been told that slick smooth joints are not good, and that the wood needs some tooth for the best adhesion. I have seen wood joints fail that came fresh off of a jointer. I have always avoided gluing up freshly planed, jointed, or scraped surfaces and I have always scuffed the underside of bridges. I'll have to rethink!

_________________
It will probably be alright.

OK with all that sound advice from the "tech's" ---- for me unless crap leeches out the pores right after jointing/planning (I use a machine), I do nothing when edge joining.

When bending sucks out the resin/oils, I scrape off the residue, if pristine I go ahead and assemble -- if not I clean the surface with acetone -- like for end and neck blocks.

_________________
Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

If the surface is so smoothed that it has been "burnished" glue bonds can be problematic.

_________________
Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Well, I did not mean to restart the "glue wars"

Anyhow, just some food for thought:
>Never heard a company that would say their product was not as good as a competitor (more often they say it is better)
>Never heard any company say they were not using the "best" materials or products
>Never put any stock in somebody who said something was "the best" when they had not tried the alternatives
So, I take all of these kinds of comments with a grain (or more) of salt

That said, I will continue to use what I do because I have found that it does a better job for what I am trying to do. I have no desire to "follow the herd", never have, never will. I was just trying to offer advice that I found to work well.

And I respect everybody's opinions, even though I differ with them

Oh, and I still refuse to wipe my joints...have never found a need to

Grant